Log Analysis
<br>
<br>This is an example of the exact type of situation that is facing the Dark Council of the Brotherhood.
<br>
<br>This conversation was started after Astatine posted a message board post that threatened to remove the entire DC due to baseless accusations (Please refer to http://www.chaoslogic.com/db/grievance/Grievance_Message_Board_Astatine_Threatens_DB.jpg). Jac Cotelin calmly inquired what was the event that prompted the the post, only to have his question dodged repeatedly by Astatine. Jac asked over and over for Astatine's advice, his comments, and his direction, but Astatine, like always, refused to provide any type of clue into the direction he expected the DB to head.
<br>
<br>For clarification:
<br>[01:11] (Astatine) last time I gave specifics I had the HM and HRLD and GM argue against them
<br>This is in reference to a fight over the original details of Project Thallium that happened almost a year ago. Astatine is still holding a grudge and has wanted to removal of those who didn't agree with all of his ideas since then.
<br>
<br>For Note:
<br>Astatine obviously has no respect for the DB, nor any interest in helping it when he refers to it as a "stupid subgroup"
<br>
<br>
<br>Session Start: Tue Mar 25 00:39:47 2003
<br>Session Ident: Astatine
<br>[00:40] (`Jac) So, what's up with you MB post? Just curious what prompted it
<br>[01:03] (Astatine) what do you think prompted it?
<br>[01:04] (`Jac) Shadonyx?
<br>[01:05] (`Jac) That's the only thing that I can think of from the past few days that could prompt anything
<br>[01:05] (`Jac) unless this is the same things from before
<br>[01:10] (`Jac) Ast, we can't fix this unless you give us more specifics of what we need to do
<br>[01:11] (Astatine) why should I give specifics?
<br>[01:11] (Astatine) last time I gave specifics I had the HM and HRLD and GM argue against them
<br>[01:12] (`Jac) Ast - FF sees what he has done wrong in the past. He's told me so, that a lot of the things you said to him made sense. I think he is honestly trying to make things better. That's why Mage is gone, and that's why Belz and Mairin are going. But no one knows what prompted your message
<br>[01:12] (`Jac) if we knew that much, we could do soemthing about it
<br>[01:12] (Astatine) maybe people should be not so self-centered, Jac
<br>[01:12] (Astatine) did the posting seem directed at Firefox specifically?
<br>[01:13] (`Jac) Not specifically - but it seemed directed at the DC mainly, and the DC reflects on the GM
<br>[01:13] (Astatine) there's people in the DC and in the larger DB community that need a bitchslap
<br>[01:14] (`Jac) And who is left to bitchslap? Khobai and Sharad are going to the HCI, Shadonyx and Mai and Mage are gone. Who else is a problem? Is it me? is it Kaine?
<br>[01:15] (Astatine) Kaine was one of the ones who argued
<br>[01:15] * `Jac nods
<br>[01:15] (`Jac) And FF plans to get on Kaine, but he felt the need to deal with the more serious ones first
<br>[01:15] (`Jac) It's hard to fire the whole DC in a day
<br>[01:16] (`Jac) And I'm not sure if you know, but the DC has publically declared it's intent to implement Thallium starting this week
<br>[01:16] (`Jac) Pyralis and FF have been working on it and Pyr declared it at the meeting
<br>[01:16] (Astatine) where?
<br>[01:16] (Astatine) that's not public declaration
<br>[01:17] (`Jac) ok -- then we'll get it posted on the news
<br>[01:17] (`Jac) but it's going to happen, Ast
<br>[01:17] (`Jac) Thallium is going to happen
<br>[01:17] (`Jac) Is that one of the things you were refering to? The changes you wanted to see?
<br>[01:20] (Astatine) amazing that I have to make a post like that to get some reaction out of the DB, hm?
<br>[01:21] (`Jac) Ast - We have been doing things long before you made that post. Everything I have mentioned was before that post. I'm just not sure what else we have to do
<br>[01:22] (`Jac) Is it again because FF didn't get permission for things?
<br>[01:22] (`Jac) Like firing Mage
<br>[01:22] (`Jac) and saying the SA would change back to non-Mage ways
<br>[01:22] (`Jac) ?
<br>[01:22] (Astatine) why do I keep hearing about changes as rumours?
<br>[01:23] (`Jac) Point Taken, but here's what I want to know:
<br>[01:23] (Astatine) and maybe, instead of getting all pissy with me, you should get pissy at the people who caused that post to be made
<br>[01:23] (Astatine) and correct the issues in the DB
<br>[01:24] (Astatine) cause out of the two...I'm not gonna go
<br>[01:24] (Astatine) the issues are
<br>[01:24] (`Jac) Does FF need permission from you to run every portion of his job (make small changes, appoint/remove people) or does he simply need to keep you more informed
<br>[01:25] (`Jac) and I'm not trying to be pissy Ast
<br>[01:25] (`Jac) I understand what you are saying
<br>[01:25] (`Jac) I completely understand
<br>[01:25] (`Jac) I just want to help fix the problem
<br>[01:25] (`Jac) and to do that I need to comletely understand
<br>[01:26] (Astatine) if I have to explain, why don't I just be DGM again, hm?
<br>[01:27] (`Jac) Is that what you want? Cause it seems like if FF needs to come to you for everything, then you may as well be GM
<br>[01:27] (Astatine) that's the core problem, Jac
<br>[01:27] (Astatine) if I have to hold these peoples' hands, why are they on the DC?
<br>[01:28] (`Jac) Well -- FF's problem is he doesn't want his hand held. He wants to be able to fire mage and appoint me without getting flak for it. He's not sure how far you want your power of approval to reach
<br>[01:28] (`Jac) How far do you want it to reach?
<br>[01:29] (Astatine) it reaches to everything, in case you're not aware
<br>[01:30] (`Jac) I am aware that you are XO, and have power over everything, but when does your micro-management of the DB stop long enough that FF can do his job, post a simple news post for example, without asking for permission?
<br>[01:32] (`Jac) I think that FF is taking things in the way that you have expressed to me that you wanted to see it go. I just don't think you have been CCed enough, and that is easily fixed
<br>[01:32] (Astatine) are you even aware of what's happened in the DB in his tenure, Jac?
<br>[01:32] (`Jac) Yeah -- just about nothing
<br>[01:32] (`Jac) I'm very aware
<br>[01:33] (`Jac) But you shot a fire under his ass the last time and he has been doing things you have asked for
<br>[01:35] (`Jac) I mean, Ast, what do you want FF to do to make you happy? He's doing the changes you've asked for, some firings, some HCIs and Thallium. What else is it?
<br>[01:36] (Astatine) why did it take so long?
<br>[01:36] (Astatine) hm?
<br>[01:37] (`Jac) I'm not sure -- but there's nothing that can be done about that now. This is here and now and you have two choices: Let FF continue with the things that he is doing at your last prompting, or just fire him
<br>[01:38] (`Jac) And he's doing them, but unless you take over GM yourself, you will probably have the same type of problem with the next GM
<br>[01:41] (`Jac) Ast, tell me what you want us to do to make you content with our progress
<br>[01:48] (Astatine) hmm, no
<br>[01:48] (Astatine) I think I'll just ignore complaints about the DB now
<br>[01:48] (Astatine) and then people will complain to Ronin
<br>[01:48] (Astatine) how's that suit you?
<br>[01:49] (`Jac) No -- that doesn't suit me too well. What would suit me is seeing you be a true leader and actually provide constructive criticism.
<br>[01:50] (`Jac) Telling us that we are doing things wrong doesn't cut it. You have to tell us what we are doing wrong adn say what you think would be along the right lines
<br>[01:50] (Astatine) hmm, no I think it's to my benefit to just sit back and churn out shitty NLs once a month and pretend to care about the subgroups
<br>[01:50] (`Jac) so Far you haven't done that
<br>[01:50] (Astatine) have a nice day
<br>[01:50] (`Jac) Ast -- the reason the DB is dying is not because of FF
<br>[01:51] (`Jac) And you have a nice day as well
<br>[01:52] (Astatine) I make a post about your stupid subgroup getting its shit together and I get abuse from you and DV
<br>[01:52] (Astatine) and knowing you, you'll porbably disappear in 3 months anyway
<br>[01:53] (`Jac) This isn't abuse Ast - this is asking you to step up as a leader
<br>[01:54] (Astatine) why do I get shit when it's not my fault the DB is in the shitter?
<br>[01:54] (Astatine) why is it my fault the GJW sucks when I'm the guy who gets the complaints about it?
<br>[01:54] (`Jac) Well -- the DB wouldn't be in the shitter Ast is you would help us some by telling us what you want
<br>[01:55] (`Jac) and the GJW was never  blamed on you
<br>[01:55] (`Jac) Mai screwed that up
<br>[01:55] (`Jac) and she's gone
<br>[01:56] (`Jac) And by the way - you don't know me. I have left this club once since I came back from retirement because of a Real Life situation that would have taken anyone away. Shame on you for taking personal blows
<br>[01:57] (Astatine) and you think I've taken no breaks in 5 years because my life is perfect?
<br>[01:58] (`Jac) Then maybe you are a better DB member then me Ast in that way, but if you were truly better you would answer all of my questions without dodging them
<br>[02:05] (Astatine) you're the great Jac, you should already have the answers
<br>[02:06] (`Jac) Astatine, if I had the answers, I wouldn't be asking
<br>